This is part 2 of my conversation with Helen and Dave Edwards, co-founders of the Artificiality Institute, a nonprofit research organization that helps people stay human in the age of AI. They explore how AI changes the way we think, who we become, and what it means to be human. Through story-based research, education, and community, they help people ch…

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This is part 2 of my interview with Dr. Marco Ventura, Professor of Law and Religion and Religious Diplomacy at the University of Siena in Italy.

Trained in bioethics and biolaw at the University of Strasbourg, Marco has advised the European Parliament, the OSCE, and various governments on the intersection of religion and rights. He directed the Center …

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This is the second half of my conversation with Dr. Allison Pugh and Louis Kim.

Allison is Professor of Sociology at Johns Hopkins University and author of The Last Human Job, winner of the 2025 Best Book Award from the American Sociological Association. Her work examines how automation, efficiency, and quantification reshape work that relies on presence…

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As automation, AI, and new forms of standardization have begun to shape so much of our lives, we are forced to ask: What forms of connection must never be outsourced to technology? And what happens to dignity, belonging, and recognition when relational work becomes displaced by “better-than-nothing” technological solutions?

These concerns are increasingly touching a range of professions: teachers, therapists, chaplains, physicians, care workers, and really anyone whose work relies on genuine human presence. They involve decisions being made right now about the future of work.

My guests today offer compelling insights into these questions.

Dr. Allison Pugh is Professor of Sociology at Johns Hopkins University and author of The Last Human Job, winner of the 2025 Best Book Award from the American Sociological Association. Her work examines how automation, efficiency, and quantification reshape work that relies on presence, dignity, and visibility. She introduces the concept of connective labor—the mutual work of seeing and recognizing another person and reflecting that understanding back to them.

Louis Kim is a former Vice President at Hewlett-Packard, where he led teams in developing AI-enabled technologies for healthcare and other industries. After decades in corporate leadership, he is now pursuing a Master of Divinity at Duke Divinity School, focusing on hospice and palliative care. Alongside his theological training, Louis participates in Vatican-sponsored conversations on principled AI in healthcare, exploring where technology can assist care and where it must not replace human presence.

In our conversation we explore the fragile space where technology meets connection, and ask where AI and new technologies can meaningfully assist us, what they distort, and what forms of encounter remain uniquely human.

In this first part of our conversation, we discuss:

1. What in-depth interviewing reveals about being truly seen

2. How experiences of death shape our understanding of accompaniment

3. The difference between emotional labor and connective labor

4. How automation and standardization threaten dignity and belonging

5. Why institutions rely on checklists, data, and control

6. The factors driving institutional challenges to connective labor

7. Why human connection is defined by unpredictability

8. The role of moral formation in resisting depersonalization

• To learn more about Allison’s work, you can find her at: https://www.allisonpugh.com/

• To learn more about Louis’s work, you can find him at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/louisjkim/

• Books and Resources Mentioned: The Last Human Job: The Work of Connecting in a Disconnected World

This season of the podcast is sponsored by Templeton Religion Trust.

This is part 2 of my interview with Wendy Cadge and Michael Skaggs.

What does innovation look like in the field of spiritual care, when fewer people belong to congregations, yet more people still need meaning, accompaniment, and spiritual support? My two guests today have been researching this question extensively.

Wendy Cadge is President of Bryn Mawr Co…

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What does innovation look like in the field of spiritual care, when fewer people belong to congregations, yet more people still need meaning, accompaniment, and spiritual support? My two guests today have been researching this question extensively.

Wendy Cadge is President of Bryn Mawr College and a nationally renowned sociologist of religion and spirituality. She is the founder of the Chaplaincy Innovation Lab, which brings together chaplains, educators, and social scientists to study and support spiritual care across public institutions and community settings. Her work focuses on religious diversity, spirituality, and the role of chaplaincy in contemporary society.

Michael Skaggs is Director of Programs and Co-Founder of the Chaplaincy Innovation Lab. A historian of American religion based at the University of Notre Dame, his research explores interfaith dialogue, maritime and port chaplaincy, American Catholicism, and emerging models of spiritual care. He oversees education, professional development, and public-facing initiatives for the Lab.

In this first part of our conversation, we discuss:

1. The origins and mission of the Chaplaincy Innovation Lab

2. Traditional and emerging models of chaplaincy and spiritual care

3. Public perceptions of chaplains versus how chaplains describe their work

4. The role of chaplains in addressing loneliness and isolation

5. Spiritual care beyond formal religion

6. Community-based and workplace chaplaincy models

To learn more about Wendy and Michael’s work, you can find them at:

• Wendy Cadge: https://www.brynmawr.edu/inside/people/wendy-cadge

• Michael Skaggs: https://chaplaincyinnovation.org/team/michael-skaggs-phd

Links Mentioned:

• Chaplaincy Innovation Lab – https://chaplaincyinnovation.org/

This season of the podcast is sponsored by Templeton Religion Trust.

This is the second half of my conversation with Scott D. Anthony. For the first half, see here.

Scott is a globally recognized expert on navigating disruptive change and a passionate optimist about humanity’s capacity to adapt in a constantly evolving world. He is a Clinical Professor of Strategy at Dartmouth’s Tuck School of Business, where he teaches c…

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Scott D. Anthony is a globally recognized expert on navigating disruptive change and a passionate optimist about humanity’s capacity to adapt in a constantly evolving world. He is a Clinical Professor of Strategy at Dartmouth’s Tuck School of Business, where he teaches courses on leading disruptive change, horizon scanning, and AI-enabled decision-makin…

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This is part 2 of my conversation with Jaron Lanier, E. Glen Weyl, and Taylor Black on AI, innovation, and the deeper questions of meaning, faith, and human flourishing that surround emerging technologies.

Jaron Lanier coined the terms Virtual Reality and Mixed Reality and is widely regarded as a founding figure of the field. He has served as a leading c…

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Artificial Intelligence is no longer just a technical project. It’s increasingly becoming central to the story we tell about ourselves, our future, and what ultimately gives human life meaning. I recently invited Jaron Lanier, E. Glen Weyl, and Taylor Black to join us on the podcast to explore not only the promises and perils of AI, but the deeper aesthetic and spiritual questions that surround it. What happens when emerging technologies are treated as either sources of salvation or harbingers of our obsolescence? And what it would mean instead to shape them toward genuine human flourishing?

Jaron Lanier coined the terms Virtual Reality and Mixed Reality and is widely regarded as a founding figure of the field. He has served as a leading critic of digital culture and social media, and his books include You Are Not a Gadget and Who Owns the Future? In 2018, Wired Magazine named him one of the 25 most influential people in technology of the previous 25 years. Time Magazine named him one of the 100 most influential people in the world. Jaron is currently the Prime Unifying Scientist at Microsoft’s Office of the Chief Technology Officer, which spells out “Octopus”, in reference to his fascination with cephalopod neurology. He is also a musician and composer who has recently performed or recorded with Sara Bareilles, T Bone Burnett, Jon Batiste, Philip Glass, and others.

E. Glen Weyl is Founder and Research Lead at Microsoft Research’s Plural Technology Collaboratory and Co-Founder of the Plurality Institute and RadicalxChange Foundation. He is the co-author of Radical Markets and Plurality and works at the intersection of economics, technology, democracy, and social institutions.

Taylor Black is Director of AI & Venture Ecosystems in the Office of the Chief Technology Officer at Microsoft and the founding director of the Leonum Institute on Emerging Technologies and AI at The Catholic University of America. His background spans philosophy, law, and technology leadership.

In this first part of our conversation, we discuss:

1. How aesthetic experience shapes worldview, imagination, and intellectual vocation

2. The historical rivalry between artificial intelligence and cybernetics

3. The danger of treating AI as an object of faith or a replacement for human meaning

4. The psychological and spiritual costs of assuming people will become obsolete

5. A tension between two different modalities of beauty

To learn more about Jaron, Glen and Taylor’s work, you can find them at:

• Jaron Lanier - https://www.jaronlanier.com/

• Glen Weyl - https://glenweyl.com/

• Taylor Black - https://www.linkedin.com/in/blacktaylor/, https://substack.com/@pourbrew

Books and Resources mentioned:

• You Are Not a Gadget (Jaron Lanier)

• Who Owns the Future? (Jaron Lanier)

• Radical Markets (Eric Posner & E. Glen Weyl)

• Plurality (Audrey Tang & E. Glen Weyl)

• The Human Use of Human Beings (Norbert Wiener)

• The Fellowship of the Ring (J.R.R. Tolkien)

This season of the podcast is sponsored by Templeton Religion Trust.

This is the second half of my conversation with Alan Moore.

Alan is a craftsman of beautiful business. He is a business innovator, author, and global speaker whose life’s work centers on one simple but radical idea: beauty is not a luxury in business, but a necessity.

He has designed everything from books to organizations, working across six continents wi…

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What if beauty—rather than efficiency or growth or profit—were the ultimate metric for business decisions?

My guest today, Alan Moore, is a craftsman of beautiful business. He is a business innovator, author, and speaker whose life’s work centers on one simple but radical idea: beauty is not a luxury in business, but a necessity.

He has designed everything from books to organizations, working across six continents with artists, entrepreneurs, and leadership teams. He has advised companies including PayPal, Microsoft, and Interface, taught at institutions such as MIT, INSEAD, and the Sloan School of Management, and helped guide some of the world’s most innovative enterprises.

Alan is the author of four books, including Do Design: Why Beauty Is Key to Everything and Do Build. How to make and lead a business the world needs. His work has been featured in outlets such as the BBC, The Guardian, Stanford Social Innovation Review, and The Huffington Post.

In this first part of our conversation, we discuss:

1. Beauty as a sense of homecoming to self, family, and the natural world

2. Why beauty is felt in the body, not just understood in the mind

3. Beauty as something soulful, universal, and deeply human

4. Living and working through the transition from analog to digital culture

5. Innovation as seeing latent potential and unmet human needs

6. The idea of beauty as the “ultimate metric” for decision-making

7. How beauty challenges dominant ideas of success, value, and the good life

To learn more about Alan’s work, you can find him at:

https://thebeautifuldesignproject.com/

Books and resources mentioned:

• No Straight Lines: Making Sense of Our Nonlinear World (by Alan Moore)

• Do Design: Why Beauty Is Key to Everything (by Alan Moore)

This season of the podcast is sponsored by Templeton Religion Trust.

Lisa Z. Lindahl is an award-winning inventor, artist, author, and entrepreneur best known for transforming women’s sports with her 1977 invention of the first sports bra, the Jogbra. As CEO of JBI Inc. from 1977–1992, she helped shape a global industry, earning ten patents and seeing her invention archived at the Smithsonian National Museum of American History and even displayed at The Metropolitan Museum of Art as a “revolutionary piece of women’s undergarments.”

In 1999, she co-founded Bellisse and co-invented the Compressure Comfort® Bra, a breakthrough medical garment now supporting breast cancer survivors worldwide. She has been inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame (2022), received a U.S. Congressional Commendation, and has long served as an advocate for women’s health, most notably through her leadership roles at the Epilepsy Foundation of America.

She is the author of Beauty as Action (2017), her philosophical guide to practicing “True Beauty,” and the acclaimed memoir Unleash the Girls (2019).

In this first part of our conversation, we talked about:

1. Lisa’s earliest encounters with beauty, from frozen rivers to childhood moments of oneness with nature

2. The story behind the first Jogbra prototype and why sewing “stretch on stretch” is its own art

3. Why the need for the sports bra was far greater than she ever imagined

4. The surprising moment when she realized that “beauty is what really matters.”

5. What she means by true beauty and why she believes it is eternal

To learn more about Lisa’s work, visit:

• https://www.lisalindahl.com/

• https://beautyinaction.com/

Links Mentioned:

• Beauty as Action by Lisa Z. Lindahl

• Unleash the Girls (Lisa’s memoir on inventing the sports bra)

This season of the podcast is sponsored by Templeton Religion Trust.

This is part 2 of my conversation with John C. Havens.

John has spent years at the heart of the global conversation on AI ethics. As the Founding Executive Director of the IEEE Global Initiative on Ethics of Autonomous and Intelligent Systems, he led the creation of Ethically Aligned Design, a document that went on to influence the United Nations, OECD, …

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Is GenAI fundamentally unethical? Is AGI a kind of religious belief? And what’s love got to do with it?

Addressing these questions is my latest podcast guest, John C. Havens, who is Founding Executive Director of the IEEE Global Initiative on Ethics of Autonomous and Intelligent Systems. John helped build the IEEE 7000 Standards Series, now one of the largest bodies of international standards on AI and society. Today, John serves as the Global Staff Director for the IEEE Planet Positive 2030 Program, guiding efforts that prioritize both ecological and human flourishing in technological design. But his perspective on AI doesn’t begin with policy or engineering; it starts with love, vulnerability, and the deep spiritual questions that have shaped his life.

In this first part of our conversation, we discuss:

• How love reframes “weakness” in both human life and AI ethics

• The impact of generative AI on creativity, intellectual property, and the erosion of human craftsmanship

• The dangers of anthropomorphism in AI design

• Ways AI systems undermine our capacity for conscious choice

• How the surveillance economy and advertising systems shape our habits and decisions

• Positive psychology matters for designing technology that supports well-being

Learn more about John’s work:

• IEEE Planet Positive 2030 Program – https://sagroups.ieee.org/planetpositive

• IEEE 7000 Standards Series – https://standards.ieee.org

Books and resources mentioned:

• Heartificial Intelligence: Embracing Our Humanity to Maximize Machines (John Havens)

• Hacking Happiness: Why Your Personal Data Counts and How Tracking it Can Change the World (John Havens)

• The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power (Shoshana Zuboff)

• Alone Together: Why We Expect More from Technology and Less from Each Other(Sherry Turkle)

This season of the podcast is sponsored by Templeton Religion Trust.

This is part 2 of my conversation with Casper Ter Kuile and Angie Thurston from Sacred Design Lab, a nonprofit dedicated to nurturing the future of spiritual life.

Casper shares insights and inspiration on the future of community, ritual, and spirituality. He is the author of The Power of Ritual and co-founder of Sacred Design Lab. He also co-created the…

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In Episode 3 of this season, we explore the evolving landscape of spiritual innovation, what it means to design meaningful spiritual life in a rapidly changing world, with guests Casper Ter Kuile and Angie Thurston from Sacred Design Lab, a nonprofit dedicated to nurturing the future of spiritual life.

Casper Ter Kuile shares insight and inspiration on the future of community, ritual, and spirituality. He is the author of The Power of Ritual and co-founder of Sacred Design Lab. He also co-created the hit podcast Harry Potter and the Sacred Text, co-founded Nearness, and co-authored the influential paper How We Gather.

Angie Thurston is Co-Founder and Executive Director of Sacred Design Lab. She has worked with hundreds of innovative leaders, finding new ways to address spiritual longings amid religious change. Angie has co-written eight widely read reports on the evolving landscape of community and spiritual life, including How We Gather.

In this first part of our conversation, we discuss:

1. The origins of Sacred Design Lab and its mission

2. What “spiritual innovation” means and how it appears across traditions

3. The story behind Harry Potter and the Sacred Text and how reading can become a spiritual practice

4. What it means to design for risk in ritual and liturgy

5. Why the term “spiritual innovation” is controversial

6. Stories of spiritual innovators around the world

To learn more about Casper and Angie’s work, you can find them at:

https://www.sacred.design

Books and resources mentioned:

• The Power of Ritual (by Casper Ter Kuile)

• How We Gather (by Casper Ter Kuile & Angie Thurston)

• Harry Potter and the Sacred Text (podcast)

• Illuminating Spiritual Innovation (report by Sacred Design Lab)

This season of the podcast is sponsored by Templeton Religion Trust.

This is part 2 of my conversation with Matt Ridley, in which we explore the beauty of innovation and how innovation works. Check out Part 1 here if you haven’t.

Matt Ridley’s books have sold over a million copies, been translated into 31 languages and won several awards. His books include The Red Queen, Genome, The Rational Optimist and The Evolution of …

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In Episode 2 of this season, we explore the evolution of beauty (especially in birds) and the beauty of innovation, with guest Matt Ridley.

Matt Ridley’s books have sold over a million copies, been translated into 31 languages and won several awards. His books include The Red Queen, Genome, The Rational Optimist, The Evolution of Everything, How Innovation Works, and Viral: the search for the origin of covid-19. His latest book is Birds, Sex and Beauty: The Extraordinary Implications of Charles Darwin’s Strangest Idea (2025).

He served the House of Lords between 2013 and 2021 and served on the science and technology select committee and the artificial intelligence select committee.

He was founding chairman of the International Centre for Life in Newcastle. He created the Mind and Matter column in the Wall Street Journal in 2010 and was a columnist for the Times 2013-2018.

He is a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and of the Academy of Medical Sciences, and a foreign honorary member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. He lives in Northumberland.

In this episode, we talk about:

1. How Ridley’s childhood fascination with birds led him to study evolution

2. The courtship rituals of black grouse and the surprising role of female choice

3. How Ronald Fisher’s “sexy sons” hypothesis changed everything

4. What bowerbirds can teach us about aesthetics and art

5. Sexual selection as a driver of creativity, humor, and the human brain

To learn more about Matt’s work, you can find him at:

https://www.mattridley.co.uk/

Books and resources mentioned:

• Birds, Sex and Beauty (by Matt Ridley)

• How Innovation Works (by Matt Ridley)

• The Rational Optimist (by Matt Ridley)

• The Mating Mind (by Geoffrey Miller)

• The Descent of Man (by Charles Darwin)

• The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection (by Ronald Fisher)

• Survival of the Prettiest: The Science of Beauty (by Nancy Etcoff)

• The Rational Optimist Society – rationaloptimistsociety.com

This season of the podcast is sponsored by Templeton Religion Trust.

This is part 2 of my conversation with Dr. Michael Muthukrishna.

What really drives human progress? What is innovation, and why is innovation not just a feature of modern society but a law of life? How do energy, cooperation, and culture shape the way we create new ideas?

These are ideal questions with which to launch our new podcast season on the beauty and burdens of innovation, and I can’t think of anyone better suited to address them than my guest today.

Dr. Michael Muthukrishna is joint Professor of Economic Psychology at the London School of Economics and Professor of Psychology at NYU (from January 2026). At LSE, he is also Affiliate of the Data Science Institute and STICERD Developmental Economics Group. Michael is co-founder and Technical Director of The Database of Religious History (religiondatabase.org), founder of the LSE Culturalytik project (culturalytik.com), London School of Artificial Intelligence (lsai.org.uk), and Center for Human Progress (humanprogress.center), Research Lead of Cities, Culture, and Technology at the African School of Economics’ Africa Urban Lab (aul.city), and Scientific Advisor at the AI startup Electric Twin (electrictwin.com). Michael’s research applies an evolutionary framework to understand human cooperation, tackling key topics, including: the barriers to cooperation, particularly how different mechanisms of cooperation (such as family ties versus impartial institutions) can potentially undermine each other; the impact of cultural differences on psychology and behavior; the processes of social learning; and how these learning processes drive innovation and cultural change. His research and interviews have appeared in outlets including CNN, BBC, The Wall Street Journal, The Economist, Scientific American, PBS, Vice, Newsweek, Time, New York Magazine, Nature News, Science News, The Times, The Telegraph, and The Guardian. Michael’s research is informed by his educational background in engineering and psychology, with graduate training in evolutionary biology, economics, and statistics, and his personal background living in Sri Lanka, Botswana, Papua New Guinea, Australia, Canada, United States, and United Kingdom. He is the author of A Theory of Everyone: The new science of who we are, how we got here, and where we’re going(MIT Press / Basic Books).

In this episode, we talk about:
1. The compass model and the adjacent possible zone
2. How to solve the paradox of diversity
3. Three ingredients of evolution: Variation, transmission, selection
4. The promise and pitfalls of AI - The Second Enlightenment
5. The promise of AI to create abundance
6. The relationship between innovation and religion

To learn more about Michael’s work, you can find him at:

https://www.michael.muthukrishna.com/

Links Mentioned:
A Theory of Everyone by Michael Muthukrishna - https://www.atheoryofeveryone.com/

This season of the podcast is sponsored by Templeton Religion Trust