24 min read

Beauty and Design

Beauty and Design

While classical Western aesthetics tends to equate beauty with perfection, some eastern traditions embrace beauty in imperfection. The Japanese concept of wabi-sabi reflects a worldview that cherishes the transient and the imperfect. It acknowledges that nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect. Here, beauty is found not in the grandiose but in the modest, the humble, and the imperfect. This principle is exemplified in the cracked yet cherished family heirloom, a representation of raw beauty that insists we must find elegance in fragility and temporality.

Navigating the world of design with a similar lens is architect and sustainability specialist, Pallavi Dean. Through the creations of her Dubai-based design firm, Roar, she fashions spaces that forsake the pursuit of perfection and grandiosity, a trajectory often associated with the iconic works of the "starchitects" who have defined Dubai's skyline. Pallavi instead aims to captivate all five senses of the people who inhabit the environments she designs. Her creations are more than just visually stunning environments; they are deeply engaging experiences that evoke lingering memories and are experienced as meaningful by her clients.

Pallavi has won numerous awards, including being named as the Architectural Digest Middle East Designer of the Year in 2020 and the global Designer of the Year by Interior Design Magazine in 2021. But she measures her true success through the eyes of her repeat clients, a testimony to her dedication to forging spaces that resonate with empathy and deep human connection.

In our conversation, Pallavi describes Dubai’s evolving design narrative as a city shedding borrowed voices to embrace and export its own authentic language; a city that balances the rush towards the future with a rich, multicultural tapestry of influences, open to different voices and narratives. It’s a vision that seeks not to impose any particular “Dubai style” upon the world, but to respect and respond to the unique context of each site, each project she undertakes, whether in Tanzania, Uganda, or London.

You can watch or listen to our conversation below, either on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Also please take a moment to leave a review and subscribe to our channels – it really helps get the word out about the podcast.

An unedited transcript follows.

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Interview Transcript

Brandon: Pallavi, thank you so much for joining us and taking the time. We just saw each other a couple of months ago at this conference we organized. I've admired you for years and years, like 25 years or something. It's a pleasure to be able to chat a little bit further. Tell me about where you grew up and what role beauty in architecture or design played in your childhood as you were growing up.

Pallavi: Yeah, look, I grew up in the UAE, right? So I'm Indian. I've never lived in India. So it was kind of always that third culture kid. Do I really fit in? When you're a child, it's interesting, the things that you notice. The question about beauty and architecture is very important. Because I remember I had a little window. My first memory of architecture is having a little window in my bedroom. I'm just staring out at the clouds and watching them move and create these different formations. I thought, wow, that's so beautiful. Or the way the light would sometimes hit the floor surface. Those were my first interactions with architecture and beauty. They were very early on. I remember being six or seven and having these vivid experiences.

Brandon: Wow, did they draw you to want to be an architect or a designer? We met each other in school. Were you aspiring to a career in design at that point?

Pallavi: They always say that, in an Indian family, you kind of have to live out your parent's dreams. My father always wanted to be an architect, and he ended up being a contractor. And as a child, obviously, he got me all the right choice. Lego was a huge feature in our house. There was all the mechanical stuff where you would screw together stuff and build it. So that whole building and creating stuff. He was an artist as well. So when all the other kids were out there playing on Fridays — which was our weekend back then — I was in art class. So I think he kind of put that into my head, ingrained it into my DNA maybe, very early on. I never thought I'd be an architect, but I knew it had to be a creative pursuit.

Brandon: So how did you then end up pursuing a career in design? What led to that?

Pallavi: I actually started university as a visual communication or a graphic design major. I remember in foundation year, they throw everyone together. They're like, oh, this is a great social experiment. Let's see what happens. I remember all my work, instead of being two-dimensional, was three-dimensional. So the professors were like, "Hang on a second. I think you need to switch majors." And I was like, "No, never. My father wants me to be an architect. No way. I'm going to be a graphic designer rebel." But as fate would have it, there were so many mentors pushing me into this direction. I would say they influenced that choice, and I have never looked back since. Because three-dimensional form really is kind of, I think, what I was born to do in many ways.

Brandon: Are there any exemplars of beautiful architecture, a beautiful design, that really struck you as a child that captivated your imagination and maybe even shaped the kind of work you do?

Pallavi: Yeah, I just remember going into religious spaces. We grew up very secular. So going into either a mosque, or a temple, or a church, I remember that scale and the impact that it had on people. People would just immediately become respectful, become introspective, become quiet. And I was like, wow, there's a three-dimensional space that is influencing behavior, or it gives you that sense of, "Wow. Something is there." It evokes spirituality through its scale. It evokes up reverence through its form. I think, as a child, those were kind of my first memories of architecture influencing behavior.

Brandon: Okay. And so then, are there ways in which you build in some of those kinds of principles into the work you do?

Pallavi: Absolutely. With the work that we do, it's very empathy-based. It's very user experience-driven. So I always journey my user through the space. I think, when that person turns this corner, what is it that they see? What can make them pause? What can make them reflect, or what can speed up that journey? So I'm constantly thinking about how they traverse through that space, and how I can very subtly influence that. I always say that architects are a little bit like bullies. Their puppeteers. They make you perform to a space. Think about walking through an airport, how would travel aid slows you down or speeds you up. I've always been fascinated by that.

Brandon: Wow. Great. Well, talk about some of the work you've done, and what you might consider striving for beauty or examples of beauty that you try to create and generate in your work.

Pallavi: See, for me, it's always — beauty is not just something that pleases your eyes. It has to evoke and kind of engage all five senses. I find that when something is truly beautiful, it does that. It engages all five of your senses, and it stays with you as a memory, as in a sense much longer after that moment. So in my work, that's what I try to do. I don't just think about creating aesthetically-pleasing spaces. I think about creating spaces that engage, that are tactile. So it engages your sense of touch. I think of spaces of how to incorporate natural elements so that it can stimulate your nasal glands as well. So it's about engaging those five senses and just always being true to the user experience. I think that is the key.

Brandon: Great. The symposium that you were at a couple of months ago, you talked about a tension between form and function. Then that was something that you've encountered in your work. Could you talk a little bit more about that and how that relates to this concept of beauty?

Pallavi: Yeah, look, when you are an architect, I think it's your responsibility to do both. Your space has to be functional, and it has to be poetic to look at. I think when I was a young architect, I was like, yeah, of course, I can have both. But I think now, 20 years on, I realized it was completely out of the box — creative, innovative, poetic spaces. Sometimes, function is compromised. And how is it compromised? It's either compromised through the economics, because those spaces are very beautiful. My favorite architect, Frank Gehry, Zaha Hadid, people look at their architecture from the outside. They're like, "Wow. Stunning." And I do too. But there are some unusable spaces on the inside. They are challenging projects to build structurally. So I think when you are pursuing true beauty — which can really have that sense of, wow, it takes my breath away — maybe sometimes you have to compromise function. I think I'm starting to float in that gray area now. I'm not thinking of things as black and white.

Brandon: Right. So how do you make that decision as to when to compromise form and when to compromise function?

Pallavi: In my work, I try and always prioritize function. Because form, you look at form for 5 minutes or 10 minutes. We spend 89% of our time inside, experiencing the space. So I will always create some aha or wow moments. But for me, in my work, I would say it's still 90% function and 10% form. Sometimes the form results from the function. I'm not saying that the 90% is boring or uninviting visually. I'm just saying that it's not perhaps as poetic as the work of Zaha Hadid or Frank Gehry, all of my idols, Thomas Heatherwick. Because sometimes, I have to think about the economics and my client's budget.

Office hallway
Photo by Nastuh Abootalebi / Unsplash

Brandon: Yeah, you don't want something that looks great but doesn't actually work for their purpose.

Pallavi: Absolutely.

Brandon: The other attention that had come up in our conversation was around perfection and imperfection, let's say. Because a lot of people associate beauty with that kind of ideal that you're talking about, the ideal of those exemplary architects. But there's also, I think you pointed to the beauty of brokenness, things like wabi-sabi. Tell us more about that kind of tension in your work. Do you ever find yourself in some way valorizing imperfection or highlighting it?

Pallavi: Absolutely. I think as humans, we are flawed, right? So anything that I create is going to be flawed. My biggest inspiration is nature. There's not a single straight line in nature, okay? People think of perfection as, "We got to get these clean, straight lines. Everything has to be super symmetrical." Yes, nature has symmetry. But you know, it's slightly imbalanced. Like my face, it's slightly imbalanced. But I think from that imperfection is where a conversation can start.

When I look at a rough surface, an unhoned fracture kind of marble, sometimes I put that as uncelebrated on a reception desk where someone else might chase that perfect piece of marble. But I think, oh my god, this marble is not alive. It's come from a quarry. It's traveled a long way. No one's going to use it. That's not right. So for me, you have to celebrate that imperfection. Because it also reminds you that you can take the pressure off yourself and allow your flaws to shine. I think it's one of — is it Rumi's quotes? I don't know who wrote it. But when you're broken, the light shines through. And I love that. I love that thing about imperfection, so I celebrate it in my work. I don't always have the glitzy, shiny things. Sometimes, I put broken tiles in my work just so that it celebrates the journey of the project.

Brandon: Wow. Great. You sent us a few images. Now, our listeners won't be able to see this, unless they go onto our YouTube channel. But could you talk us through to those images, and what it was that you found striking or important about them?

Pallavi: Yeah, I sent you a lot of work-in-progress images. I sent you images of one of our team members, the construction team member, laying down the carpet. Now, everybody looks at that as such a useless task. But for me, he was sitting there for hours making sure all the patterns would align. Because I'm so OCD. I was like, please just make sure all the patterns are lined in one certain direction. So he was carefully checking out the direction and laying it down. I find that so beautiful, that joy and that pride that he was taking in the work and also honoring my feelings. So that's one of the images I sent you.

team members
Source: Pallavi Dean

The others are just me at a workshop or me on a site. For me, beauty is almost that process of iteration. I think that's where beauty comes in from. It comes to those hours that you spend honing and crafting, and not just the finished product or the project. It's that iterative process. So those are the images. That's what they speak to. For me, beauty is an iterative process. It's a work in progress. Much like us as humans, we're always trying to evolve, develop, better ourselves. So that's kind of where I was at for those images.

Brandon: Yeah, I think that's really important to think about. When I talk to scientists who have studied a lot about the role of beauty in science, this iterative nature of the scientific quest is really something that everyone talks about but not as a space where they find beauty. For a lot of them, that's where the ugliness, and messiness, and frustration comes in. That, for a lot of people, is having to deal with failure when something doesn't quite go the way you want it to or dealing with the unexpected. Talk more about the process. What does that experience like for you, and what does it look like? Where exactly is the beauty in that? Is there also pain? Is there also suffering? Is there also ugliness?

Pallavi: Oh, yeah, I would say pain and ugliness is the flip side of beauty. So you can't have one without the other. There are two sides of the coin. I think you can only appreciate beauty of the end result by going through the pain and suffering. You nailed it. Frustration, of course, through any creative process. You're putting a piece of you out there, so you're being so vulnerable. Sometimes your ideas, you try and test them, and they don't work. And you got to restart, and you got to rethink, or you have to convince someone and sell your idea. So that process is very painful. It's quite emotionally exhausting, because it's so much of you that's gone into this book. But at the same time, like I said, you can't have one without the other. I think they balance each other out. You can't have perfection without appreciating imperfection, and you can't have beauty without going through the pain of the process. So for me, the process is just integral to the design. Everybody is like, "Oh, let's just get to the finish line." I'm like, no, there's no way you're going to learn anything by just getting to the finish line. Or, you won't even appreciate the finish line if you don't appreciate this present moment and the process that we're in right now.

Brandon: Do you have a memory of any one particular project where the process really stood out to you as a place where you encountered something beautiful? Anything where you could walk us through that journey, and then show us a little bit of where the beauty was.

Pallavi: Yeah, we were designing a spa. I think you spoke about it in the Kempinski Hotel. In my head, I was stuck on this vision, these gigantic arches that create an internal courtyard that leads into the spa room. Now, that was a nightmare to construct. They constructed it, and the contractor actually got the dimensions wrong. So the base of those arches ended up in the middle of a doorway to the rooms themselves. They had to be off to the side, so people could actually walk into the room. I was like, oh my God, there's no way I can waste so much steel. We can't lose project time on this. But it was working on site and finding a solution.

Source: https://www.sleepermagazine.com/stories/projects/roar-designs-spa-for-kempinski-hotel-mall-of-the-emirates-in-dubai/

What I found beautiful is the structural engineer was there. Me, as the designer, was there. We had the mechanical engineer. Because, obviously, we had air conditioning and all sorts of stuff in the ceiling as well. Working together and through the varied experience and expertise of so many different individuals, we came up with a solution. We salvaged that problem, rather than being like, oh, God. I found that very beautiful. That art of collaboration, of human collaboration and human expertise coming together to resolve something, that's magic.

Brandon: Yeah, absolutely. There's another important challenge, I suppose, for a lot of people in trying to particularly do design. It's to convey this principle of what our friend Anjan Chatterjee calls hominess, this idea of being able to feel at home. That's one of the key principles for hospitality in any kind of space. How do you convey that? What does that mean to help people feel at home whether in a hotel, or in a restaurant, or even an office? How do you do that?

Pallavi: I think the most important thing is always going back to my basic principle, which is engaging the five senses and working through empathy. That's the core of any space that we design, whether it's a hospital, whether it's an office, whether it's a hotel. So if you start from that point — which is empathy-driven, understanding what the user needs are, what the user experience is, and how to engage them — you can't ever go wrong. This idea of hominess or feeling the sense of calm or sanctuary is very important in the space. So I'll go back to the evidence-based design, where you spend 89% of your time indoors. So you really have to have this sense of calmness when you're in this space. Now, a lot of people design these perfect institutional spaces that are showhomes. But you just never feel comfortable, because you'd be like, if I put my feet up on the coffee table, a robot is going to come and eject me out of my seat or something. That's where the imperfection comes in.

We just recently designed a wellness center. So people go in for rehab therapy, for psychiatric treatments. One of the big things the psychologist was telling me, "Please don't design a perfect space. It has to be imperfect. It has to be rough around the edges so that people can feel who they are — flawed." So I think those homey spaces also have to have that, a sense of imperfection, so people can feel at rest. Besides that, adding biophilic elements, natural tones, neutral backgrounds, reducing the visual noise, all of these are other tricks that we use to convey that.

Brandon: Great. Your work has won numerous awards, and that's fantastic. Do you have a sense of like, what is it that when people are honoring your work, what are they resonating with? What is it that makes your work exceptional? Are there any sort of threads that tie it together, that characterize your particular creative vision?

Pallavi: Look, when I was a young designer, all I wanted was the awards. I just wanted a pat on the back. I just wanted someone to tell me that I was good enough. Now 20 years later, as I get older, I stopped believing in the awards. Because I believe that, if one year I'd win an award and they're celebrating me, "Well done, Pallavi," and then the next year, I don't win the award, does that mean I haven't done well that year? No. So I've developed my own barometer, my own yardstick of success which is not the awards, which is my repeat clients. So we have 90% repeat business.

You said, what is it that makes our work so special? It's all of those things. Empathy, user-based experience design. It's evidence-based. We use a psychologist in our briefing. So we also make sure the clients get exactly what they want, engaging the five senses. So that's the common thread. I don't have a signature style. My project is very varied. One can be modern. One can be classical. One can be super futuristic. But they do have a common design philosophy which is on my principles. But for me, what the real win in life is that repeat client, that, more than design. 80% of my job is sales. It's building that connection with the client. It's building that rapport. It's building that human connection where I'm actually delivering to their needs.

Brandon: Well, that's really striking. I've been thinking about the dimensions of what makes work beautiful for people. Part of it is certainly the products that you generate. You can talk about the aesthetic principles in the various products and designs you develop. Then we've talked about process a bit. We've talked about just that journey. People are a huge component of what makes work beautiful for us. You've spoken a bit about your clients. What is your team like? How do you recruit? Who are the kinds of people that you want to work with? What is your philosophy of trying to create a company or a community of folks who are working with you?

Pallavi: Our company is called Roar. We're 92% female, so I would say we're like a real tribe. We're like a little pack of lionesses, and a few lions in there as well. So what do I look for? I always say that one thing they don't teach you at university is emotional intelligence, those soft skills which I think are so important in my job. Because at the end of the day, I'm a consultant. I really have to listen more than I speak. So when I'm hiring people, that's what I look for. Because I think I can teach you software. I can even teach you some basics of space planning and design, but I really can't teach you to be a nice human being. So I always start from there — if you're a decent human being.

You know, Brandon, hopefully, you will come out to Dubai this year, and you will come to see my studio. We have just a bunch of feel good, happy people. There's a lot of humor. There's a lot of candor in our office. Sometimes people come in and they're like, "Are you sure you're professional?" I'm like, yeah, we've built 300 projects. You can be nice and think you're funny but not actually so funny, and you can still be professional. So that's the environment that my team has. I think all my colleagues are very much part of the work tribe and work family for me.

Brandon: How did you develop this idea of Roar? How did that concept come about? What influenced that?

Pallavi: I think when I first started the company 10 years ago, it was called Pallavi Dean Interiors. It was just me freelancing from my guest bedroom. Then we went to hotel, so it just snowballed. I didn't intend to create a company. It snowballed into what it is today. Then I thought it was unfair having my name on the door, because there were so many other creatives in that that contributed to the story of our design. Then I was like, okay. So we had a little workshop. We're feminine. We're super powerful. We had this term at the time. We have interiors with a bite. I was like, oh. We just brainstormed, and we came up with Roar. I was a huge, and I still am a huge Katy Perry fan. So I was like, dude, there's even a song about our company. This is great.

Brandon: It's great you got an anthem. The other element of beauty at work is, I've been thinking about this purpose and why people do what they do. You talked about your design philosophy a little bit, but could you say a bit more about the why behind your work and particularly how that's evolved over time? What is it today compared to where you started? Why do you do what you do, and where do you hope to go with it?

Pallavi: Okay. So the first one, I'm going to be very honest, is very selfish. Because I couldn't do anything else, Brandon. I would make a terrible accountant. So part of it is just my own selfish desire and my passion for creativity. So that's where it kind of started. Then the why. When I was working for big companies, it was always pens down, the client is not paying us, the fee is not enough, you can't keep designing. So that's why I set it up by myself. Because I was like, no, I want to give this person who has come to me the best possible version of the space and put 500% into it. So that's why I started the firm.

Again, when I first started, it was all about sustainability for me. No one was doing it at that time. So I was like, I have to make sure that I'm also saving the environment. Because that's one of my values in life. Oh, not saving. I don't think I'm that. It sounds very narcissist. I couldn't save the entire environment, but I want to do my bit. That's kind of how it started, specifying the right products. Because I had a lot of allergies, so I wanted to make sure there were zero VOC paints, lots of things like that. That all started. But now as I progress, all of those things are basic. We do them anyways. Now it's more about empathy-driven design, which I see so lacking. Because everything is very ego and signature-driven in my world. I want to stop that. I want it to be about the client, not so much about this architect.

Brandon: Right. Looking forward, are there particular kinds of projects that you want to accomplish? Is there a dream for where you want Roar to be in future or what you would like to accomplish or contribute to?

Pallavi: I don't have a crystal ball-gazing attitude. I'm very present moment focused, so I always like to take stock of where I am. I'm so grateful for where we are. We're working on two mosques currently. So they are, first, religious spaces. So I'm very excited. You know the story I told you at the beginning? My first experience with architecture was in a religious space. It's almost like full circle and bringing it back home. The other thing, if it ever happens in the future, my biggest ambition is to design and create a wellness retreat center for rehabilitation. So I would love to be involved in a project like that.

Brandon: Wow. Great. Talk a bit about working in Dubai. I have talked to designers and architects in different cities. One of the things some of them are really interested in is figuring out how design can contribute to improving the city and making a mark on the city, but also changing behavior around how communities come together, how to make the city a better space. What is it like to work in Dubai, first of all? What is this scope for design and reshaping the city and its future?

Pallavi: Dubai gets such a bad rep, right? Everybody's like, "Oh, my God, here goes another Guinness Book World Record. They want to build the flashiest, boldest, brightest." Okay, yes, I will admit. There is an element of that. But within that, every city wants to do that when they're putting themselves on the map. Dubai is a very young city, and UAE is a very young country. Think of Singapore 20 years ago. So there was a bit of that. But now, there's a lot of sensibility because we are creating our own design voice.

Museum of the future, located in the heart of Dubai. The 3d building is a museum where unlike the traditional museum history stuff is shown but here it's about the future! The fantastic structure of the building is very attractive and it's one of the hot attractions for tourists.
Photo by Haris khan / Unsplash

First, it was a borrowed design voice from Hong Kong, or Singapore, or London, or New York. But now Dubai has got its own identity. Instead of importing styles and designs from the Western world, we are creating our own design language and exporting it. So you look at the Museum of the Future, a beautiful piece of architecture, an iconic piece of architecture, which has Arabic calligraphy all over it. So it's very exciting to be in a city which is ambitious, which is future-focused but also willing to understand different voices. It's such a multicultural society, so there are so many different influences. So I would say it's a very exciting place to practice architecture.

Brandon: Okay. Could you talk a little bit about that aspect of what a home-grown, Dubai-grown perspective on design could look like elsewhere? You can imagine, in a few years, Dubai-based architects doing projects around the world. Would there be anything distinctive that comes from this environment? Any particular aesthetic principles? What would help us recognize the influence of this particular architectural style? What would that look like?

Pallavi: I hope that Dubai architects like us — we are practicing in many parts of the world. Besides Dubai, we're in London, Tanzania, Uganda, India, Pakistan, name it. I would hope that you would see no distinguishing factors. Because if you're truly a good architect, you will respect the context where your project is. It should not be something that's Dubai-based. It should be specific to that site, that context, that brief. I think the one thing that all of us who practice in Dubai have is, we won't take no for an answer kind of attitude. We always find solution. The other thing is: I've worked in London as well. We worked at a breakneck speed and pace. I don't think anybody can challenge a company based in Dubai in architecture and design that works at the pace that we work at. So I think those would be the two things. But design-wise, I hope there's nothing that distinguishes us.

Brandon: Yeah, that's really great. The breakneck pace is a bit worrisome from a well-being perspective. How do you find balance? How do you think about rest and making sure you don't burn out and all that stuff?

Pallavi: Yeah, look, I think balance. Everybody talks about this work-life balance. There's no balance. They co-exist. So it's up to you to decide how they co-exist. So you work hard, and you play hard. Yes, there's breakneck speed. But if you're efficient, if you're productive, and if you time and manage your day properly, I'll leave work at 5 PM every day. So does my team. It's nine to five, and we're out of the office. But we're efficient with our time. So we have deep work hours. I don't allow anyone to use their emails or their phones, Instagram, social media, all that crap for two hours in the morning. I'm like, "Get your creative work done. Then you can get on your social media accounts." So I think we get so sucked into social media, into the news, into all of this stuff that we're not efficient with our day. When you stop that distraction and the noise, you actually realize you don't need to work overtime. You can get stuff done.

Brandon: That's great. Talk to us a little bit about the space in which you guys work — of course, when you're on site, it's a different thing — just even the design of your own company and how you've thought about that, and what that does when it comes to the way you all work.

Pallavi: Look, I started in a guest bedroom, in my spare bedroom. My ambition in life as an architect was always, I wanted a warehouse that I could convert and make my own. Then about a year ago, this warehouse in this Arts District in Dubai came up. I was like, oh, my God. It's a no-brainer. This has been my dream. So it was a bit of a leap of faith because it was a massive budget. Because I put floors into the warehouse. I refurbished the entire space. So the space is super neutral. It's a blank canvas. Because I, again, didn't want the visual noise when me and the designers were working on other projects. It's open plan. It's got a beautiful sample library. It's got lots of closed spaces where you can do your deep work and your calls, et cetera. But it's a very creative environment. It's a very voluminous space. I read somewhere that Pixar, I think Ed Catmull talks about it. He says that, when you have a space more than 10 feet high, your creativity triples. I'm like, great. That is what's going to justify my investment, return on investment, while I did this refurb.

Brandon: And did it work?

Pallavi: I think so. I think we're much stronger today than we were a year ago. But of course, I have to tell myself those lies as I pay off that loan that I took.

Brandon: I've heard this before. I interviewed an architect before who talked about how double height ceilings and so on are able to create more of a sense of cohesion. You really feel you are in the same space with others even if you're on different floors and so on. Yeah, that's fantastic. Any other big things you're looking forward to either in the immediate future or long term? What is, for you, a beautiful career? What would that look like to you down the road?

Pallavi: I think I've had a beautiful career, and I'm having it right now. I just hope for more of the same. I don't think there's anything that I want that I don't have. I've just finished my MBA, so I'm going to take a little bit of a break from education before I start my PhD. I'm looking forward to doing that. I want to do a PhD in psychology of design, which a lot of my work is based on that. So I'd love to do that. That's one thing I'm looking forward to. But other than that, more of the same would be perfect. I don't want any more.

Brandon: Awesome. That's fantastic. This is such a thrill. It's such a delight to be able to talk to you and to hear more about your journey and to learn more about the beauty that you encounter in your work. Where can we send our viewers, our listeners, to learn more about your work and what you all are doing?

Pallavi: I'm super active on Instagram @designbyroar or the website designbyroar.com. So yeah, drop us a line and come and check out what we do.

Brandon: Fantastic. Thank you, Pallavi. Always a pleasure.

Pallavi: Thanks, Brandon. Lovely chatting with you.

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